The Real Bottom Line

Hello and welcome to the Real Bottom Line where we talk to other entrepreneurs about entrepreneurial challenges and things that are going on that we should be aware of. My guest today is Michael Devaney and he is a return guest to our show because I don't think we can talk about this subject too much and that is about the mental health of entrepreneurs.

So Michael did a survey back in 2018. 17, I believe it was, and it showed that 68. 3 percent of entrepreneurs experienced mental health issues with a 31 percent depression rate. And to put that number to context, that's nearly four times higher than the general population. And also 72 percent of respondents questioned whether they are getting what they want from their businesses.

So Michael, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Wendy. And really appreciate you having me on.

Oh, my pleasure. Like I said, this is one of those subjects that I think, I don't think As entrepreneurs, we can talk enough about, uh, and start to normalize some of these things that we're seeing. So what prompted you to do this study back in 2017?

Was it one of the first studies of its kind?

So it's still, it still is the largest study ever done in the world on entrepreneurs and the connection of mental health and their decision making. And the move to do the study for me was personal. Um, I had just gone through, well, I thought I had gone through, but I was still in it, a really deep, intense depression.

And it's one that, uh, in the end, caused me to have to leave two of my companies, uh, at the time. So, one of the things that came through is like how much entrepreneurs Connect to their own company that how much it means like how much it impacts their sense of worth So when I was going through the depression and I was no longer able to do what I used to do It really hit hard and the question that drove me is that is this just me?

Am I weak or is this something that is shared by other people? So the first mindset survey came really out of trying to find out if I was alone or not, and then I found out I was definitely not alone. And this is an incredibly, uh, big problem that there's talk about but very little action. So that brought me in to do the Mindset Project survey, publish all the results, and I'd hoped that it would Lead to a lot of change.

Um, although it has not been the change that I expected, I guess I'll put it that way.

Do you think that you were able to affect, um, a change in the level of awareness, but maybe not action on solving?

That would be a really polite way of wording it. Uh, so I, I think, and this is in general, not just for entrepreneurs, but I think it's probably worse for entrepreneurs.

We're talking a lot more about mental health. A lot of people are saying it's now become more acceptable to talk about it. Mm hmm. But it really isn't. Like, you know, we're talking about it, so it's like we're checking a box. And, like, no, no, you can talk about it, but, like, we don't want to hear it. And, I think, as you know, I've written a blog for a long time, um, being very open about my mental health journey and what was going on.

And I've had so many people, uh, friends, discourage me from writing, that I would ruin my career, ruin my career. Ability to earn business. If I continue to talk about my mental health so openly, I actually found it to be the opposite and that people, I think, warm to the fact that I could just say it as it was

and

not worry about it.

And so that's been a big piece for me, but, um, I, I just think, um, I'll be really blunt as I always am.

Please do.

Government likes public relations opportunities. So the ability to say that, um, it's horrendous what's happening to entrepreneurs, the pressures that's put on them. But yet nothing happens or they put in, uh, an awareness program, but they're still putting so much pressure on entrepreneurs, the sense of isolation that entrepreneurs feel, um, as we're going through the second, uh, uh, rendition of the survey, like we're seeing, like, it's even more intense than it was before,

uh,

that, um, that sense of isolation that we can't talk about it and if we do, it's going to hurt.

Uh, our business. And because the business is really so much of our sense of worth, it means there's something wrong with us. So we tend not to talk. So, um, that's kind of a long answer to the, the first time around was really a personal journey to understand if I was alone or not, and I know for me, the last number of years have felt heavier, um, and a little bit darker with the pandemic, with all the things going on in terms of, um, Geopolitics and what also could be ahead.

And it kind of led me to the question again, like, are other people feeling the same way? So that's kind of what prompted me to want to see where we are right now.

And so that's the second survey, almost a check in to see where the bars have moved. Is that what's motivating this a little bit as well?

Yes.

And I think, uh, so my business has really built from that first mindset project survey to, um, working with analytics on workforce, on how people work together, uh, their overall experience of work. So, I look back and like, I can't believe what I did without knowing what I was doing. So I look now and go, okay, now I know what I'm doing.

Uh, so the survey as people will find is a bit longer, um, just to test everyone's patience. But It also goes deeper, so I'm able to do much more, uh, analysis on it that we can, you know, find out a lot more about what's, um, really weighing on people or what would help them move forward. Um, so I'm really looking forward to what comes.

So I already have seen like a fair number of results, so I have a pretty good idea of what's going to come through. Um, but I'd kind of rather not talk too much about that because I'm still looking forward to it. Uh, quite a few more responses to come in.

400 entrepreneurs the first time around. Did you not to, uh, would that responded?

Yeah, I have no idea how I did that. I look back and go, I don't know how that happened. Um, this time it's taking more work. I do think people have been in an inundated with different surveys and questionnaires. And for this one to stand out, it's taken a lot of personal. Uh, connection. Um, so to have, to have you do this is incredibly gratifying, um, because like you're really taking time and putting energy and effort into this whole message, which means a great deal to me.

Um, and you know, in other areas, like not so much, so.

Well, you know, the work I do in terms of the financial health of entrepreneurs and the financial health of their organizations and helping them make them more ready for transition. This affects all of that. And so being able to show, I think the key message here is that you aren't alone if you are suffering from any, any, um, Mental health issues and you're an entrepreneur.

You're actually more the norm than not from what I'm reading from your previous work

Yeah much more and that's coming through loud and clear this time around again Again, connecting to what you just said is that you know Struggling with financial health is one of the highest points of stress that an entrepreneur has so That hasn't changed so Finding the money we need Um, I do find this time around, uh, we, we asked a question that I hadn't asked in the past.

Um, I just find like there's always this feeling that we're supposed to be growing, like, you know,

everything

is around scaling up, like everything is focused on

10 times, a hundred times. Exactly.

Like, can't, can you do it? And what I'm finding is we asked a number of questions around that, um, the huge pressure that people feel.

Even though at the same time, they're suffering because of it. Uh, like they have to grow, even though it's keeping them from things that would be important to them, like family, and relationships, and friendships, and, and doing things that are important, uh, for their overall life. So, I think there's a message that really has to be, be moved out there, because, you know, government, Has very strongly pushed on the need for entrepreneurs to grow.

We're always the backbone of the economy. Um, but at what cost, and then we're talking about the productivity gap all the time and you know, there's reasons for that productivity gap, but it isn't, you know, lack of ambition and lack of engagement from entrepreneurs.

One of the statistics I wrote down was, uh, about the percentage of businesses that don't appear to hit the potential.

What is that statistic and where did it come from? Yeah,

so there was work done by Statistics Canada through their, uh, own surveys that showed, uh, the likelihood of hitting, uh, the potential financial performance, operational performance was only around 46%. So most companies owned by entrepreneurs are struggling with the ability to get things done.

And I think if anybody just sits back. Yes, , uh, like I know that intimately, um, I never have a lack of ideas. I've never met an opportunity I haven't liked. Um, but I definitely struggle with getting things done, getting things moving, and I don't think there's been an entrepreneur I've spoken to that hasn't talked about the same thing.

So that challenge to me is, is. That's something we need to look at. It's not because we don't know what we're doing. It's because there's so many other things that are impacting our ability to get there.

Right, right. So, I mean, that was seven, eight years ago. And in the interim, we've had a We've had a pandemic that for some businesses almost shut them down or did shut them down at that time.

And now we're starting to see a rash of bankruptcies because, um, of. The loans and the financing they took, that business owners took during that timeframe to keep themselves going, um, is now too much for the company or the bank doesn't believe in them anymore. But like that has got to have an effect.

Yeah. I think someone called the Siba Echo, uh, because everyone had the Siba loans, which, you know, were great. And I definitely took advantage of them. And then all of a sudden, before you knew it, they were due.

Yeah.

And it's not like I didn't know they were coming due, um, but still it seemed like a huge surprise to me that, uh, I gotta pay them back.

You're right. Um, and I think that's been a struggle and it, it comes through again in the data I've seen so far. Is that ability to cover the financial health of the business is a huge issue.

Well, I think that there's this perception that when COVID went away, like, or dissipated, because it's still here, but you need a way to, to them for the most part, life returned to you.

Mostly normal that your business level would return to normal almost right away. And when I talk to some entrepreneurs or they're communicating, they're like, listen, it took us another year or two to get back to that level. And now we have additional loans and interest rates went up. So it was like this perfect storm of they're still not out of the water.

No. And I think, I think a lot of it, Wendy, too, is like we wanted it to feel normal again. Because the pandemic, I think the pandemic had a larger impact than we all have realized. And the isolation of it, uh, the fear, I think, of coming firsthand that we could lose everything in a certain event. So things went back to normal, uh, but I think we wanted them to.

But I think it's left this. Uh, someone said there, you know, many people have said the real pandemic is the mental health impact that came from those two years, particularly. But like you said, like, we've gone from a pandemic to, we have two, you know, very active wars going on, which, um, really affects our, the way we see the world.

Uh, we have an election, um, south of the border, which, It seems to make no sense whatsoever, um, and that'll have an impact on the world one way or another. It does, like I said, the world feels a bit heavier right now and I'm not sure we fully recovered from the impact of the pandemic in terms of our outlook and our resilience and our ability to manage it all.

We're trying and we're telling everybody we're fine, but what I'm seeing in the data is that's not particularly true.

It's interesting. I know from myself and my perspective is I've almost had to learn how to socialize again and actually make sure that I have following up on opportunities to do so to gain that muscle back again.

But it, I come home exhausted after certain events.

It seems to take more effort than it used to and like I've aged, so that could be part of it. But, you know, I do find it definitely. Feels like I said, it feels heavier and an AI like artificial intelligence has been, uh, this massive opportunity and change that is coming, you know, really rapidly, although it's been around for years, the last two to three years particularly, it's just been just accelerated advance.

So there's a big issue of like, you know, AI is the new electricity. It's going to change the way we work and live in almost every way. I'm a total AI. Addict. I love it. I just am so such a believer in what it can do. But you know, I look at another statistic because I do a lot of work in this area that only 8 percent of organizations have any strategy how to integrate AI into the work flow and the workforce.

And that means we're all looking to jump on it, but yet we're not sure what we're doing. And I've always kind of thought that AI is like Right now, AI is a solution looking for a problem instead of we should do the other way around. It's like, what's the problem we have that we want to resolve in our business and how can I help with that?

And so I think a lot of people are, you know, feeling some stress as to, I know from, from the data I'm seeing is that there's not a high level of confidence in the direction people are taking.

Why do you think that comes like, why, as a, I guess maybe I'm a little bit of an early adapter. I've been kind of geeking around like you have.

Um, Where is the stress point for the entrepreneur around AI? Is it that they should be using it and they can't see the use case yet or they're afraid of being left behind? Like, where do you think that stress point is?

I think the biggest stress point is where do, where do I start as all the pressures you mentioned are there?

And then the, it just seems overwhelming. So where do I start?

Yeah,

and you know, I do I do strategy work on this side and people say well Why would I even set up a strategy? It's changing every three months. I said, well if you don't have a strategy You're not going to be able to respond to those changes Idea is not to set some five year strategic plan.

It's be able to have a sense of where you want to focus and, and be able to apply AI in a way that would help your business. And I firmly believe it can help our lives, uh, and our businesses. I understand the risk, um, but AI in its own will not take over the world. It's still programmed by people. So it all comes down to how we actually use it and how we apply it.

Totally agree with that. And so, There's been the pandemic, economic upheavals, AI, the rawness of remote work is something else you've highlighted for this new survey. What's going on there? Where's the pressures for the entrepreneur? Is it that most employees want to work at home now or there's pressure to make it so that they can?

What's going on?

I think again, um, Entrepreneurs, um, to the greatest extent want to have that connection with people. And, um, I do find there's a lot of question marks about our team members working, uh, you know, to their capacity if they're at home. Uh, I'm a firm believer in remote work. I absolutely love it.

Um, but Um, I wouldn't say that I'm the norm probably. Uh, so this is something I think, I think we always struggled with how best to, to lead people, uh, in an organization. That's when they were right in front of us. Um, now they're not. So I think that's even more of a challenge. And most entrepreneurs went into starting a business for, um, personal reasons.

And they were not necessarily, and I put this nicely, well for me, I know for me, I was not a good leader. Um, and I still question whether I am. Um, so, You know, the seeing the opportunity, seeing the vision of what could be done. That's something I think we do incredibly well, um, helping people contribute. So one thing I've been doing work on as well is what is it like to work for an entrepreneur?

And so two numbers, I always get caught on numbers. Two numbers that grabbed me was that, um, the turnover rate for employees of entrepreneurial companies is double that of the national average. And, uh, the time period that people will stay with an entrepreneur is half of that that they'd stay with another organization.

So people leave more and faster. So when you say it feels like, you know, we've got a revolving door here on people, there's something going on. And I think it's a lot of it. A lot of it comes down to this mindset of the entrepreneur, uh, so people are not staying and they're, you know, they're moving on more quickly, which makes it really unstable.

And I think you probably have gone through this. I know when someone leaves, it feels personal and in a large organization, it wouldn't be the same, but because the business has such a connection to our sense of worth, when someone leaves, it feels like they're telling us that You know, we're not worth it when they may have found a different opportunity that fits them better.

Like there could be a lot of reasons. Um, that's something I think I'm really looking forward to having looking at the connections there.

Um, it's, uh, like I don't think as entrepreneurs, when we're smaller companies, we do enough assessments of ourselves and of people who want to work with us and understanding how to communicate.

This is how I work. And then understanding what that person will thrive in that environment.

Yes. And one of the things I think the pandemic aggravated, um, there was a study done in California almost 10 years ago and showed was that, um, 49 percent of entrepreneurs, uh, come from households that had a first degree family member with a mental health issue.

So that means we grow up with one of our parents or one of our siblings having a mental illness. And that has a tendency to create an unstable home environment, which can lead to a higher likelihood of PTSD. And I was surprised last time around, we had a, almost again, four times the rate of the general population, an instant rate of PTSD for entrepreneurs.

So, uh, I have PTSD. I'm one of those statistics and I wondered this time around, like how prevalent is it here and it is prevalent. Uh, so there's a high level of PTSD incident in entrepreneurs. And I think the pandemic triggered a lot of people. Uh, and if you're not familiar or you're, you don't, understand the impact of PTSD on you.

Like, I don't know whether you, you probably haven't responded well to, to those, uh, triggers. Um, so the anxiety rates are through the roof this time. And, um, I think a lot of it comes from, there's something about, I think, When we come from households like that, that we want a greater degree of freedom and we want to feel like we're more in charge.

I think that leads us into entrepreneurship. Um, and still though that PTSD potential is there and it can be triggered by events. Uh, just a pandemic when everything was unsettled, like we had no control whatsoever. So that would really trigger people who were looking for that ability to, you know, have a greater say of how their life was, was going.

Hmm. I have a weird question for you now. Okay. Michael, what is the question that you love the most, like that you're the most curious about on your survey? Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm. That's not a weird question, that's a tough one.

The one I'm most interested in is, um, well there's two of them because they're related. Why did you start a business?

Ooh, okay, yep.

And, um, and then why do you want to grow?

Hmm.

So, this time around too, we're asking open answer questions. So we can do sentiment analysis. So now I can actually attach feelings and sentiment to the numbers.

Sentiment analysis. Nice. Yeah,

so that's something I absolutely love because You know, we can give numbers, but then you can say, this is the feeling that people have and you can express it in words that, okay, now that's a sensation I can relate to. Is that kind of

those word clouds you see sometimes that you surveys you do and then the biggest word is the word that came up the most or something?

That's, there's, that's one type. Um, what we're looking at is, What are the actual feelings that people have behind the words they use? We have enough questions on there where I think we probably tested people's patience, but, uh,

I don't think so. I just did it, Michael, and it didn't take me that long. It was, it was as advertised.

It wasn't one. It wasn't that you said, Hey, this survey is going to take five minutes and it took me 15. You said it's going to take 15 and it probably took me 13. So I think you're, uh, You're bang on with the number, with the amount of time you need.

It's not bad. Uh, but I'm, so I'm fast in it in the sense that we have the strong feeling that we need to grow our business.

How do we feel about it? Like that to me is going to be fascinating because

I

have a feeling, but I don't know the answer yet. I haven't looked at that. Uh, I haven't looked at those questions.

Okay. All right. I like to leave people with some practical stuff. So Michael, if, if I'm an entrepreneur or anybody that's feeling anxious, stressed, depressed, what are the top couple of things I could do?

to help myself or to what is the, what can I do to help that state?

So without question, it is seeing a therapist. And one thing the pandemic did change on a positive basis was the access to online therapy. So trying to find a therapist locally can be really challenging. Trying to go through the medical system is almost impossible, but now we have, Uh, online systems that are really good and really responsive.

So, particularly if you're, um, if you're from an underrepresented group, um, and you don't see yourself in the therapists that are here, you can find a therapist who would, you know, be from the same identity group that you are looking for. So, There's a greater sense of connection. So where I'm gay, if I'm looking for an LGBTQ therapist, I can find one.

Um, and the pricing is better. Um, and, uh, it can work quite well. Like I'm really lucky that I've got this incredible therapist I've worked with for 10 years. You know, I've connected with him well, and he's done, I honestly say I wouldn't be here without him. Because there's been some pretty tough times in the last number of years.

So I think knowing from the numbers in 2017 and from what I'm seeing in the numbers now, the biggest hesitation entrepreneurs have is they don't talk about it to anybody. So the first thing I would do is you need to talk to someone, talking to a therapist, and don't wait until you have a problem, talk to a therapist.

Um, they're going to listen, they're going to help, and there's something about having someone that just has to listen to you, uh, for that period of time, it's great. So what entrepreneur doesn't like an audience? So it really works out well on many sides.

Oh, that's amazing. Um, Michael, this has been fascinating.

So, um, for people to go take this survey and help add to the numbers and the, and the learning for Michael's group, it's the mindsetproject. ca. Um, please go to, we'll have it in the show notes as well. It's the It's, it's a really important work that Michael and his group are doing, um, to help understand the landscape.

And this is how more resources, more supports may be developed is because the problem is better understood. Any final thoughts, Michael?

I think the biggest thing I need to say is thank you. Like a thank you to you for all. for, for doing this and put it in moving the word out. And I really have to thank Jason Davis and rally marketing.

Jason's been, you know, um, fundamental in terms of getting this out and partnering with me to, to do this again. So I really appreciate his help and to the people that are, you know, putting the word out to their networks, like, I just can't thank you enough. Uh, the idea again is to. Bring back something that we can do something with and you were saying practical outcomes.

So this time around, I want something more than to publish articles about here's what we found out. I want there to be some practical things that will come out of it that people can use. I'm not depending on government to do it. So, um, uh, we'll find a entrepreneurial way to take this data and do something with it so people can learn from it.

When do you anticipate compiling, compiling, compiling, new word for me, uh, all the results? Like when will the report be ready, do you think?

So the data will be in, we're giving it till the end of July.

I want more than 434 from last time. So uh, again, just can't help being an aunt and parents, it's gotta be more than last time.

Um, so the results should be ready in September.

Oh, that's amazing. So Michael, I hope you'll rejoin us and share some of the results that you find so that we can continue to talk about this important issue. Once again, it is www. themindclinic. com. Set project. ca where you can just scroll down and complete the survey that will help with the results.

Let's get, let's get Michael over the four 50 mark you guys. And I think the real bottom line there is if you are feeling anxious, stressed or depressed, reach out and find some help. Thank you.